Episode 15 ~ Jo Bradshaw, Everest summiteer, and expedition leader with just one mountain left to complete the seven summits!

In episode 15, I interview Jo Bradshaw, an expedition guide and Everest summiteer who’s one mountain away from completing the Seven Summits challenge to fundraise for ‘Place2Be’, a children’s mental health charity.

In the episode, she tells me how she started her adventurous on a bike ride in Peru in 2004, when she cycled over 500km from Lake Titicaca to Machu Picchu in Peru, to having just one climb left to join the Messner group of those that’ve stood atop the seven summits (the highest peak on each of the continents)!

Having just got back from a successful summit of Toubkal in Morocco, and Antarctica before that (to strip and repaint Damoy Hut, aka “the world’s most southerly waiting room”!)  she shares her story of how she transitioned from a life as a business advisor in Buckinghamshire, halving her salary, selling her fancy 4x4, and renting out her house to move to Wiltshire, to join a small adventure consultancy in midst of the 2007 / 2008 global financial crisis (GFC).

How to find her

Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/_jobradshaw/⁠

Website: ⁠https://www.jobradshaw.co.uk⁠

Place2Be

⁠https://www.instagram.com/_place2be/⁠

⁠https://www.place2be.org.uk

• Read the transcript here

  0:05

  Hi and welcome to the Tales of Adventure podcast.

  I'm Chris, your host, and every month I'll be interviewing Inspiring Adventures about overcoming hardship, taking risk, and Doing It Differently.

  Podcast aims to document the learning that got the standout individuals to where they are now.

  In episode 15, I interviewed Joe Bradshaw, a mountain guy from Everest Summit here who's 1 mountain away from completing the Seven Summits Challenge.

  0:28

  In the episode, we discussed how she transitioned from life as a business advisor in Buckinghamshire to join a small adventure consultancy in the midst of the 2008 global financial crisis to qualify as a mountain leader.

  Listen how she shares her experiences.

  It took her from a 500 kilometer bike ride in Peru to leading expeditions and standing at the highest point on earth.

  0:47

  Hey Joe, welcome to the Tales of Adventure podcast.

  It's great to have you on.

  How are you doing?

  Yeah, I'm really good.

  Thanks Chris.

  How are you?

  Yes, I'm good, thanks.

  It's a bit overcast here in sunny Estonia, but it's it's nice not to have the snow anymore and I can't believe I'm actually saying that.

  Yeah, absolutely.

  1:02

  Well, it's also over the cast here in.

  Normally sunny, Salisbury.

  And yeah, I haven't seen any snow since I arrived back from Antarctica.

  Oh no, that's a lie.

  There was someone Team Carl much more than we expected.

  So yeah, it's nice to be snow free now.

  1:20

  Snow free for one, Snow for a.

  Bit, Yeah.

  You've literally kind of just dived in there with two huge, incredible things in itself.

  You've just come back from submitting to Cal a few weeks ago for International Women's Day with a team of 12 or so.

  Can you tell us a little bit about that?

  Yeah.

  1:35

  Yeah, and so we went.

  It was a, it's a very short trip.

  So we flew out on the 5th of March and I had a team of 12 ladies who were put together or came together with Adventure Queens, which is a female community group and you can find them online.

  1:55

  They've got really good Facebook page and they're they're really active and also some friends of mine came along too which was really nice and.

  I was working for a company called Adventurous You who are based in Wales, really lovely company and the aim was to summit on International Women's Day, which also happens to be my birthday.

  2:15

  So that exactly.

  And I made a really conscious decision last year to do less expeditions, which is always interesting when you're an expedition needed by trade.

  But to spend more time in the UK and doing personal projects and this one, so whatever expedition I'm doing from now on has to take various boxes in my own little checklist.

  2:45

  And this one did.

  So I was working for a great friend.

  It's an all female group, some of which I knew.

  I think all Bar One had been on crampons, hadn't, sorry, hadn't been on crampons before, so it was a real learning opportunity for them.

  3:00

  I hadn't been on Tubaccao in nine years, so it was really nice to go back.

  And when I was last there, there was no snow on the mountain.

  That was the beginning of January 2014, so it was a very different look and it was a short trip as well.

  So yeah, it ticked all the boxes for me and it was a great trip.

  3:21

  We had really incredible group.

  Yeah, I can ask you more about the Antarctica thing, cuz I think it's super interesting because we've been interviewing some Antarctica adventures recently out to Sweden to kind of hang out with them for a week.

  3:38

  So I'm very interested to hear more about your.

  So you went to Antarctica to help out, to guide the A team who were stripping and repainting the Damoy Hut the most the world's most southerly waiting rooms.

  Yeah, I know.

  3:53

  It's all a bit bonkers really, when you get into sort of life in the outdoors.

  My my dream, I don't think I really had a dream of when I actually, when I started in the outdoors of what was going to happen next.

  And this was definitely never never on the bucket list, however.

  4:12

  And I so happened.

  So I made this decision to sort of calm down going abroad.

  I've been abroad a lot over the last 1215 years and I've quite fancy spending a bit of time in the UK and seeing what else is out there.

  It's not all about, you know, high altitude expeditions and and helping others to achieve their dreams.

  4:32

  I want to get something out of it for me.

  So I Mom and I were on a Hersey Group and cruise down.

  Heading towards the Antarctic Peninsula when this e-mail came through from an Antarctic guru called Steve Jones and with of ALE Logistics and Expeditions.

  4:59

  So I've been out to Vincent Klein Vincent before so that's we'll chat about that in a bit and and I've met Steve and kept in contact with him.

  And CCD was Sophie Montana, who would be a great person for the podcast, by the way, and the Ice Maidens team.

  5:18

  Ice maidens, Yeah.

  And so I saw, and I've met her before and we've had lots of really good chats about public speaking at schools, talks and things, and she's just the most awesome individual.

  And so this this e-mail when you know, my friends at UK Antarctic Heritage Trust have a position to fill in Antarctica between the 1st of January and the 28th of Feb.

  5:41

  And I was like, Oh well, I'm fairly free then I had a couple of DV jobs which I knew the guy that I work for is amazing and if I cancelled he'd be a bit miffed, but he would be like now I've got your back on this and so but there was a they were after a winter mountain needer and I don't have that qualification even though I have a huge amount of experience in the outdoors in that environment, you know, snow and.

  6:11

  Field camps and everything.

  Didn't have that one.

  I don't have that qualification so I emailed back and this is where it's always good.

  If somebody puts you forward for something or says or you may be interested in this.

  If you can't do it, always reply and say thanks.

  6:27

  But this is you know cuz you never know.

  Yes, that's the thing in the show notes.

  Yes.

  Exactly so.

  I replied saying looks amazing, I am.

  I do happen to be free.

  I happen also to be on my way to the Antarctic Peninsula on holiday with my mom at the moment.

  6:46

  However, I don't have my winter ML so I'm afraid I'm out.

  And then Sophie emails back and says no, don't worry Joe, we don't need it.

  I know your experience, I know what you're all about.

  So yeah, give us a call.

  7:02

  And that was it.

  I had a WhatsApp call with her.

  When I was heading towards Peninsula, the second day of the Drake, the first day being horrendous.

  Drake's passage is an interesting.

  Place to cross.

  Yeah.

  So, yeah.

  7:18

  And that's kind of how that started.

  And it was, you know, so my I'm gonna spend two months at home.

  Ended up being a different home.

  It just happened to be in a tent on the Antarctic Peninsula repainting a Hut with two amazing heritage carpenters called Sven and Martin Wow.

  7:37

  Yeah, but absolutely bonkers.

  It's brilliant.

  I love that kind of almost the randomness of the story, you know, where it's like you're kind of heading in that direction anyway and it's like, well, we need somebody who's who knows called Environments.

  I was going to stay around here for a few months, like.

  7:52

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

  And so when I was on the call to Sophie, she said She was explaining Damoy Hart and Dorian Bay and the Peninsula and everything.

  And she said, oh, you're actually going there in three days time.

  8:10

  What coincidence?

  Yeah, I was like, how do you know that?

  And we don't.

  And I learned a huge amount about this industry that is cruise ships down in the Antarctic.

  And it's not just cruise ships, There's yachts that go down there.

  Yeah, teeny tiny yachts and met some amazing yachties, which is, that's what they're called yachties, the smaller ships.

  8:34

  You know, the sort of the more basic and they're not basic, the more basic and then the really, really fancy expensive ones.

  Hertzer Group and for us were amazing.

  It's just just what we needed.

  So yeah, it was mad And then when we actually went to Des Moines, so I could see the heart.

  8:53

  And so if you said we'll do a little recce and see where you know your field camp can be.

  And I sent her a photo and she said there's an awful lot of snow there.

  It shouldn't be like that.

  Anyway, there was still the same amount of snow when we arrived.

  So yeah, wow, bonkers.

  9:11

  And then the nice thing was actually because my mum and I went snowshoeing.

  They do snowshoeing excursions and we did snowshoeing around that area.

  And so my mom could actually see where I was going to work, which is she's never been able to do before because, you know, I'm always going away and climbing mountains that that she's only seen in pictures.

  9:34

  So it was really nice for her to actually see where I was going to be.

  Yeah, brings it to life I guess and actually kind of helps, helps illustrate the story somewhat, especially if you've got your your mother there as well.

  He's obviously, you know, obviously went out to raise you.

  9:50

  And yeah, I can imagine if I would, I would definitely love that.

  I think to, you know, to to see one of those great passions.

  Yeah, yeah.

  So it was amazing.

  I mean, it was the most bonkers job.

  The weather was fairly horrendous most of the time.

  10:07

  We had winds of up to 70 knots, which is interesting.

  Especially when.

  You're intense.

  And but we got the job done.

  You know against like everything just kept on being thrown at us from a late late getting onto the site to you know collapse mess 10 and.

  10:31

  Of course, you name it, we had it and I was just like we were 3/4 way through the project.

  It's like just give us one day where we're not battling something because it was either really sunny, so the snow was melting, or it was raining so the snow was melting and we couldn't paint, or it was really windy, which actually was the least of our worries, amazingly.

  10:54

  Or it was.

  Something, something, something, or, you know, a mess tent was sinking or whatever it was.

  It was a really good lesson of OK, this is a situation I can't nip down to a hardware store or an outdoor shop to get it fixed.

  11:11

  We it's just us.

  Fortunately, Port La Croix.

  Which is the main base down there where the shop and the museum are, and the most southerly post office as.

  They were just around the corner, so we were ready.

  We had good radio contact with them, so we had people around us, but but we were sort of we were in it, that was for sure.

  11:32

  I loved it.

  I really, it was amazing and I really miss the Penguins, yeah.

  And and the sort of just the tranquility because.

  It was.

  You know, you're lying in your bed at 5:00 o'clock in the morning and all you're hearing is, apart from the wind, a Penguin Penguin calling.

  11:53

  And then suddenly it goes really quiet and it's like they all suddenly switched off.

  So.

  That five in the morning.

  Had a little nap and then they were back to it.

  It was incredible.

  Yeah, it was brilliant.

  Geez.

  Well, yeah, I think I've ever heard anyone talk about kind of Antarctica in such kind of vivid detail because it seems it seems like this place that's almost, it's almost a little bit mythical like Narnia, you know, like, you know, gone to Antarctica.

  12:18

  And in my mind, I'm not thinking, well, I know there's land, there's lots of snow.

  I've seen lots of photos of these isolated almost like moon bases.

  But it's so hard to visualize it until you until you kind of see it.

  So I was going through the Instagram and I was looking at the photos.

  I was like, it's really incredible.

  12:34

  It's like A and your task was to almost like kind of fix a piece of Antarctic heritage, wasn't it?

  Yeah, And preserve it for kind of future generations.

  Yeah, definitely, definitely.

  So this Hut was was built in 1975 as an air transit base and so the British Antarctic Survey ships when they couldn't get further South to Rother Rd. because of the sea ice, they would come into Dorian Bay and.

  13:02

  Offload their personnel and and stores and then a Twin Otter whenever the weather was good enough which is very rare actually which fly onto the glacier pick them up and take them further South and and it was open until 19 seven sorry 1993 when a new runway was built at Rothero and they could fly from the Falkland Islands down to Rothero direct and you when you walk into the Hut you feel the sense of history.

  13:31

  Because there's stuff there, and it's recent history as well.

  So there's stuff in there that was in my dad's workshop, and there's things like needle powdered milk and Quaker Oats and Spam.

  Yeah, but it was.

  13:51

  Yeah.

  So what our our aim was to strip the IT was blue.

  So if turbo was blue, strip all of that paint off and all the layers underneath because it's not about 6 layers of paint and and it a lot of it was peeling and and not in good condition.

  Prime it and then repaint it the orange color that it was when it was first built.

  14:12

  Orange is a good color for airplanes to see.

  I guess stands out a lot from.

  Yeah, hence why wind socks are orange.

  So.

  And yeah, and it was, yeah, it was amazing, amazing.

  So and very different to the interior.

  So we had, we were sent some questions.

  14:29

  The only communication we had with the UK were e-mail.

  We had a satellite phone as well, but e-mail was the main communication.

  So we had no Internet apart from that, which was absolute bliss.

  It's so lovely not having everything else around and we were sent some questions that people have posed from.

  14:50

  From the UK and one was what it's what is it like to be in the Great White Desert and as we said, wet.

  Because it was.

  It's a.

  Totally, totally different weather system than it is in the interior or even when I was on Vincent of that that weather because you have all of the the winds coming from the West and the north.

  15:18

  And it's coming straight over the sea.

  So it's it's very wet.

  So it was, and it was apparently the worst summer weather conditions since 1968.

  And we were like, yay, so good to know, so glad we're painting in the West in like 50 odd years.

  15:37

  Yeah.

  But it was incredible and I loved it.

  But yeah, really unique experience.

  I I can't get over just how interesting it is to hear about Antarctica and that genuinely have got this this very odd fascination which has been developed in the last few years about you know this this place which sounds like somewhere from from Narnia.

  15:53

  But I realize it I'm probably distracting from your your main vocation which is the mountaineering because you've got some incredible like stats behind you for your mountaineering experience.

  I'll just kind of name a few and the noticeable ones you've you've summited Everest, Elbrest, Vinson, Kilimanjaro, Denali, Akamkagua, Manaslu and right now you've only got the contents pyramids to go before completing the Seven Summits.

  16:22

  So can you tell me a little bit more about that?

  Yeah, sure.

  So for anybody that doesn't know the Seven Summits are is not sure which one it is.

  Anyway, the premise behind it is that it is the highest mountain on each of the seven continents.

  16:39

  So the version I'm doing is the Mesner version.

  And because there are a couple depending on your version of a plate and a consonant, yeah.

  So the one I'm doing is all the six that you've mentioned already, which I climbed and didn't even start off.

  17:05

  When I started my adventurous life and and started guiding and leading, I never set out with the intention to climb the Seven Summits.

  It was never a thing for me until after Everest.

  And Everest was #4 of the Seven and I don't even know why.

  17:25

  This is really interesting.

  I think when you were, when you were working in the industry rather than doing as leisure, these kind of things.

  Don't hold such a big draw for you.

  And also I was busy just getting on and doing leading and getting loads of experience and pushing my boundaries as well and wanting to go to different places.

  17:51

  So after God, it's a really long story behind this.

  That's good.

  That's good.

  I think it's a great one actually.

  Let's let me actually kind of give some context and kind of share share a little bit about your background from obviously from my research is that we know that you started adventuring kind of roughly 2004 with a cycle ride from Lake Titicaca to Machu Picchu in Peru And that was kind of like the start of your adventures lifestyle from and you said you were a business advisor in in Buckinghamshire at the time and that kind of kick started the this transition into a much more adventurous kind of focused adventure focused lifestyle and didn't it.

  18:38

  And he said on your website you kind of say you you half your salary, you sold 4 by 4, rented the house out, made this this huge kind of life transition to to down to to Wiltshire, to work with a company who were then able to help you get started on this life path.

  18:55

  So I guess could we could you tell me a bit more about that because there's definitely parallels to what's the situation at the moment in the post COVID landscape.

  Yeah, sure.

  So yeah, as you say, I it actually started with a parachute jump, weirdly in 2003 and I was bored at work one day and it was a Friday afternoon and.

  19:20

  Up pop this parachute jump on Google or Yahoo, whatever we used at the time.

  And I was a very unadventurous person then.

  I used to have grand ideas of adventure but actually really scared me, so I.

  Never did anything.

  I used to say yes a lot and then turn around and say no.

  19:38

  So, you know, I think my friends were a bit bored of that and they were like, oh, here she goes again.

  So when I signed up to do this, a very good friend of mine who worked in the same company at the time.

  She was like, brilliant.

  I will drive you to the jump site just in case you can't drive back.

  19:55

  House OK, right.

  That's instilling great confidence.

  Is somebody's scared of heights?

  And what?

  Have you?

  Yeah, I was going.

  To say, however, it's only many years later, and I think it was last year that Caroline actually fessed up, and it was, And she said it was to make sure you went, you know, because we were so used to you.

  20:19

  Saying yes to stuff and we knew you wanted to do it and then not having the the lady balls to go in you know actually follow through whatever it was you were going to go and do.

  So she said we could see that you wanted to do it, but you just needed to try and she was absolutely pivotal in my change of attitude and.

  20:46

  You know my change of life as well because it was quite a, you know, it didn't happen overnight.

  So I did this parachute jump for Ask Me UK and you get into the marketing wheel and never get off.

  So they then sent me this.

  21:01

  Flyer for a bike ride in Peru the following year and I took it into work and Caroline said oh brilliant, that's the next thing and I came up with this whole list of.

  Reasons in my head, not excuses, reasons why I couldn't do it so I didn't have a bike, you know, I wasn't that fit.

  21:20

  It's a lot of money to fundraise and so I didn't have the deposit for the trip.

  So she said That's fine, we can sort everything out later.

  And I will lend you the money for the deposit and just pay me back an instalment.

  21:37

  I was like, oh damn.

  My friend is literally now reducing all the barriers to this and I have to.

  Yes, she's just 100% right that you are going to do this.

  I'm not giving you any excuses of backing out and you need friends like that.

  21:54

  You absolutely need friends like that, the ones that championing champion you and say.

  We know you can do it.

  We know you're scared will help.

  Yeah, 100%.

  Yeah, I, I, I generally say she kicked my butt.

  22:10

  But yeah, yeah, it was it was it was less of a gentle.

  Merge, but 100%.

  Without her doing that, I wouldn't be doing everything I've done since.

  So that then led on to another couple of bike rides with Discover Adventure, who are based down in Salisbury or outside Salisbury and then on the the third.

  22:32

  Trip I was doing, just got chatting to the leader like many people talk to me.

  How did you get into it?

  And Jackie said send a new CV to DA discover adventure and they'll take you on as crew.

  And that's again, it's somebody else who recognizes something in you.

  22:49

  Because I wasn't even thinking about doing it as a job.

  I didn't even know it existed as a job or an industry.

  And you know, I was living a very unadventurous, very safe life in Aylesbury at the time.

  And why would I change that?

  23:05

  Because, you know, it was not so great but and then.

  I guess it's also it's also to interject.

  It's also the kind of the era before social media had really taken off, wasn't it?

  So there wasn't really this this kind of you know kind of adventure influences and such.

  23:23

  You could actually say you can.

  You can lead this lifestyle and.

  You know, kind of make it.

  Yeah, exactly.

  For one to the better.

  Because Jackie said you.

  Yeah, yeah, that's the thing, she said.

  You can work in your normal job and then do trips in your holidays from work, which is what a lot of leaders did because having a job in the outdoor industry doesn't pay particularly brilliantly.

  23:51

  So actually it's quite good having a well paid job and then getting your adventure fix doing it.

  Yeah which which works you know well for me to begin with.

  So in 2007 that's what it did started on London to Paris trips and then they saw something in me and said come you know we have a job opening in the office do you fancy coming to work for us full time So and it was again it's all these things that slot in sometimes you you're.

  24:20

  You think that the universe is against you, but actually it's just pulling together to get you on the right path.

  And my job at Business Link, well, not my, not my particular job, but Business Link was under review and I was potentially going to go and work for Milton Keynes Council in Business Development and it wasn't really my.

  24:43

  Love because I, I and I knew because I I When I left school I worked with horses and I thought that was going to be my life.

  And then that sort of finished in my mid 20s and I went on sort of business journey instead.

  24:59

  So I'd lost one passion and I was trying to find something else that I could be passionate about, but I haven't quite found it yet.

  And so it all happened at the right time and I I have nothing to lose.

  I didn't even.

  You're talking about the global recession.

  25:15

  It didn't even occur to me that I was leaving a well paid job to halve my salary, move into a rented house, buy a banger and all this.

  In a recession.

  Yeah, well that was a level of substance which I think didn't come across you know was kind of miss off the website was it was 2007, 2008 was a global financial crisis, which I was, I was quite insulated from it in the military at the time.

  25:45

  So it kind of happened without me really noticing.

  But you know I thought well I knew this thing happened and I researched it since then.

  So when you did, when you made your transition from a very single business job.

  Career into something which is kind of unknown, it's probably uncertain and I guess almost as well.

  26:06

  Is that the peer group pressure to kind of stay in that safe and stable environment?

  Probably.

  Would have been.

  Yeah, definitely.

  I think recognizing that it was.

  You you took a a big gamble where the odds has come, sat against you, actually made, really made.

  26:22

  It work.

  Yeah, definitely.

  And it was at again, it was at a time where so I went to work in the office at discovered Venture to run the open challenges.

  And up until that point, a lot of charity trips have been done on the fundraising option, which is where you fundraise the whole lot and obviously as the recession was kicking in.

  26:43

  That's a lot of money to fundraise so and people were still hungry for adventures even in a recession rather than just going and sitting on a beach or you know what have you they wanted to to come out and do stuff and the so I started in the office with DA in January 2008 and.

  27:10

  Dealt with about 500 clients in my first year.

  The second year I dealt with 1000.

  So yeah, exactly.

  So that's how much it was amazing that that industry kind of skipped the recession.

  It was just bonkers and we couldn't work out why.

  27:26

  It's like people are struggling and.

  You know, I I was trying to sell my house at the time and that had gone down in value and all of this stuff.

  But people were still really keen and it just I think hit the right spot the right time and and yeah, so it was it was just a very odd thing.

  27:46

  But what DA did to me was immense because they also sent me out on trips and I got to learn the industry.

  I'd already seen it as a client.

  And I started, but they then started sending me out more on trips and wreckies and I started leading trips and and actually before I started in the office.

  28:07

  So when we were talking about the office job and I was getting that sorted and this is where other little pivotal it's like the sliding doors moments, isn't it?

  Of life.

  So.

  October 2007 they had me down to assist on a bike ride in Vietnam.

  28:25

  Because I was a cyclist then, you know, I understood bikes and and was bike fit and they had to take me off that and they put me on to lead Great Wall of China Trek.

  Yeah, exactly.

  That's just pretty much how what I said because they knew that I had the people skills and I was working with another mountain leader.

  28:49

  We were Co piloting the the expedition we were working with a really good doctor and I had A and the local agents and the local guides out there.

  Brilliant.

  So it's a really good place to learn your trade and if they hadn't have taken me off a bike ride and put me on a track you know again I I wasn't.

  29:10

  I loved, you know, I like tracking.

  I like walking, but it wasn't my preferred method of travel at the time.

  Because now I much prefer it to being on a bike, yeah.

  It's just those little things that take us on a slightly different path and, yeah, go and discover where it's going to take you because it was, yeah, quite pivotal.

  29:37

  Yeah.

  Yeah, I mean it's so interesting here in the insight from, you know, being in the, the adventure industry during the the last big recession, global financial crisis, you know, to still see that people were still.

  Engaging in that, you know, in that kind of stuff which you know bring brings kind of makes life more vibrant, you know, brings that kind of richness to, you know, to to kind of living through the kind of like challenging.

  29:59

  Terms and it's definitely.

  Like it's really like, it's really reassuring.

  I want to say like it's it's.

  Yeah, definitely.

  And it and it does.

  I mean, you know, working in the travel industry during COVID for all of us has been an absolute nightmare.

  I mean, I my work completely dissolved and I was a Tesco delivery driver for 11 months.

  30:20

  And you know I just know some really good companies who have gone under because of and companies are still struggling you know this and also the cost of fuel and I mean cost of just for everybody have gone up and then cost of living crisis and everything.

  30:38

  So it's it's been just like hit after hit after hit, but we're a resilient bunch, you know you have.

  To be you.

  Really have to be so.

  I totally agree.

  I think because I've since the kind of the last few years kind of like since an accident and the the the The Cave and I've kind of got really into into bike packing.

  30:58

  So the cycle touring which you were describing in Vietnam now is I'm almost looking upon it as something of a renaissance.

  And I'm sure I'm wondering if it's I turned 40 this year and I'm wondering is it is it because I've hit the new, you know, kind of the era of my lifestyle, I've kind of become more more responsible, less risk, probably more risk averse.

  31:18

  Less risk.

  Aware, I think it's risk aware.

  Risk aware, yes.

  And I think that's I I think you know as you get older I think you definitely do become more risk aware and and way up the sort of risk rewards ratio because sometimes it just doesn't stock up anymore.

  31:35

  And I'm, you know, I'm a decade and a bit older than you and and I'm now sort of, you know, this year is going to be a bit of a voyage of discovery for me.

  Because I'm lessening the number of expeditions I do because I just can't deal with it.

  31:54

  I just, I've been doing so many and I think my body's just gone right, OK.

  And my brain as well because I'm certain time of life and the menopause and all of that that has you know, involved in, that's quite of a voyage of discovery as well.

  32:10

  So I think, you know, it's.

  I think you become.

  Your your yeah, your risk reward ratio definitely tilts.

  Excuse the other direction.

  Yeah, I was.

  I was.

  Just thinking then I mean I guess in in kind of what you're up to now I guess would you're probably going to get into start writing down about some of these stories about the adventures and stuff because I'm sure you must be you must be holding onto loads and loads from and we're going to get onto a few of the mountains that you've climbed because we we spoke.

  32:43

  I think you did a sales adventure live event a few years ago and I know there's been you've you've done a few more mountains since that which I wanted to get into.

  But I guess, I think, I think maybe I'm talking from personal experience is that after my own accident, I felt more of an inclination to write about these things and kind of.

  33:04

  Philosophically, yeah, explore them in terms of the risk rewards, the benefits, the the, you know, the challenges.

  Yeah, definitely.

  Yeah, there is.

  There's a book in there.

  Definitely.

  I just need to start it.

  And that's the biggest step, isn't it, With anything anybody does.

  33:19

  It's just starting.

  And people go, Oh well, it's really easy.

  Like, what?

  Have you written a book?

  Because he's not easy because.

  Not easy, you know.

  Do you self publish?

  Do you try and find a publisher?

  All of the different sort of pros and cons of that sitting down and actually writing everything down.

  33:38

  And a friend of mine said, but you have everything there you have because I save a lot of the blogs that I write offline as well.

  And I'm writing about my life.

  You know, it's not like I'm having to research the subjects because I'm living it.

  So yeah, that was.

  33:55

  Another reason to actually have a bit of a change this year and not be away so much.

  Is to really put some effort into this, which obviously has worked well in the last 2 1/2 months when I have been away totally.

  But I'm home now and have some time, so I just need to put my brave pants on and come do it.

  34:18

  Yeah.

  Well, I think I mean like yourself I kind of transitioned from.

  Probably how I engage with doing kind of physical adventures and then saying, well actually I've kind of picked up a fair few things over, you know a couple of decades of doing it.

  34:34

  And so actually I could I just start putting them out into the world so other people can actually learn from it and hopefully, fingers crossed, not make the same mistakes I did have in the past.

  So I don't know.

  I think it's, I guess it's probably just like a natural point to where we we stopped for a pause.

  34:51

  You know, maybe COVID did.

  Did that.

  It made us pause for long enough to go.

  Actually, do you know what?

  I think there's a better way.

  I think a better way of doing this.

  Now yeah, definitely What I was doing with.

  It, yeah, I think it was a very, it was a real point in time for so many people and it was 100% of pause, wasn't it?

  35:09

  Because I know a lot of people who have worked in the outdoor industry then went off and did other things and we like the.

  Everyone else who is, is experiencing the sort of star shortages and we're the same.

  It's the experience that has gone and that's the real, real shame.

  35:28

  But it then leaves the door open for new people to come in.

  And you need that churn.

  You absolutely need that churn.

  So, but yeah, and it's really, you know, use the word interesting way too often, but fascinating how you know I'm now sat in here in my kitchen in Salisbury talking to you.

  35:47

  And you're in Estonia, is that right?

  Yep.

  Yes.

  Yeah, yeah.

  And I have a world map behind me.

  And, you know, and all these places I've been and I still sometimes have to pinch myself because I still think someone's going to tap me on the shoulder and go back in your box, Love.

  36:03

  I know.

  What you mean there?

  And there's a great saying of comparison is the thief of joy And that is 100% correct because I have done a lot and.

  I haven't done the most in the world, never will do.

  36:19

  But then how do you quantify that?

  Qualify it?

  You can't.

  And when I'm at talks or I'm chatting to to friends oh but it's alright if you've done so much.

  It's like I started somewhere first as well and I need to think of a better wave.

  36:34

  I began something myself once and I was at the start of that journey and well, I was doing a talk to the army actually online last week and.

  Somebody was saying, how do you break down all these big things?

  I'm like you, just and as corny as it sounds, you've just got to take the first steps.

  36:52

  Like me writing the book.

  I have to take the first step.

  I have to put my brave pants on.

  And a lot of people said to me we'd love to read it so.

  I need to just do it so.

  Yeah, I mean, it reminds me of there's a famous saying out there, isn't there?

  37:10

  About the best way to eat an elephant is one piece at a time, which I think is so, obviously so hilarious, you know, that it's just like, well, it makes entire sense, isn't it?

  They're going to eat an elephant.

  They just do it one step at a time, which is definitely kind of what you're.

  37:26

  Yeah, definitely.

  Take that first.

  Exactly, and I never had any.

  I never had any ambitions of climbing Everest at all, so it wasn't as if I started in the adventure industry and when.

  That's what I'm going to do because I always said no to it.

  37:43

  It's expensive.

  It's really dangerous.

  Although there are more dangerous things out there than climbing Everest.

  It, you know, I'm not capable.

  All of the stuff that pretty much all of the barriers that I put up for my initial.

  You think that the?

  38:01

  Skydive.

  Yeah, all of that was almost.

  The same kind.

  Of skydive, but elevated.

  So.

  And I had.

  I was guiding on Kilimanjaro quite a bit and I've now climbed that 37 times or something.

  Ridiculous you do.

  It's work.

  38:15

  I know.

  It's like how did that?

  And that's the thing.

  It's my job.

  Yeah.

  And yeah, so and then I.

  Hit 40 in 2011 and wanted to do something to celebrate that.

  38:38

  And I had, because I used to work with horses and I'd also led a horse track for Discover Adventure across the Andes, which is the most amazing experience I've had.

  It was incredible.

  Absolutely incredible and.

  38:55

  I so I wanted to try and do that for my 40th, but I'm not very good at being a client, especially in an industry where I worked as well.

  So I couldn't find anything that quite fitted or you know, it was too expensive or the wrong time of year for work and everything.

  Anyway, so I then I was leading a trip, an Everest Base Camp trip for Discovery Venture and Rolf Ustra was.

  39:23

  The leader and I was his assistant and we got chatting about stuff and what I wanted to do and he was leading a trip to Mirror Peak for his own company, 360 Expeditions, the following spring, which quite nicely fitted with my birthday.

  39:40

  It was a month later, bless him, but my uncle had just passed away and left me a bit of money so I could afford to do that.

  And it just kind of all fitted and I was like, well I've been to, you know, I've done, I've done killy, I don't know how many times by then, so you know going above 6000 metre pee, going onto crampons and in just a different realm.

  40:04

  So I went out and did that and we didn't even summit because we got about 200 meters below the summit and the weather was pretty gnarly.

  There was a crevasse across our route so we can cross it.

  40:21

  And you know, there was just a no go.

  And it's like, well, what do you do is I've had clients and this is really interesting when clients say, oh, it's all right for you because so I know this is I have failed probably on more mountains than I have had successes on and they're the ones where you learn so much and I learned very much on that and it is very much, it's about the journey and the summit is the bonus and it is never guaranteed.

  40:53

  So I always go into expeditions that I'm leading and personal ones going, OK, we'll just take it day by day.

  And actually it's only in the next step that counts because you just don't know what's going to happen.

  And with the.

  Yeah, exactly.

  And with the best planning in the world and the greatest weather and everything, Shizzle happens sometimes, as I found out in Everest in 2015.

  41:16

  And so, yeah.

  And that then led on to doing a concagua the same year at the end of the same year.

  And then that led onto Manasalu, which is an 8000 meter peak sort of in the central central Nepal.

  41:35

  So it was, it seems like quite a big jump, but there's a lot of stuff that happened in between, a lot of training, few trips out to the Pyrenees where 360 are based.

  So learning my craft and for me that is really important.

  41:51

  I don't want to get onto the mountain and learn what to do.

  I want to know how to do it.

  Yeah.

  The only thing that we didn't do, and I'm not sure it would actually have helped, is that we didn't do any ladder crossings before.

  42:09

  So when we got to a ladder, which then is your route across a crevasse, a big gaping hole in the ice, was to just get on and do it.

  You know, you have no choice.

  You have no.

  Choice you have to go and do it and our sharpers were amazing.

  42:26

  I still work with him today and 10 years later and and they said right watch us this is how you do it.

  Off we go.

  So I was like, OK, nothing like peer pressure you just you've just got.

  To get on and do it so you know some skills, absolutely.

  42:43

  You have to learn before you get into these environments where if the weather suddenly turns bad and you don't know your stuff, you're putting yourself and your guides in a.

  In a trickier situation, having some knowledge is better than none.

  43:01

  But yeah, we just had to get on with it, so yeah.

  Yeah, I mean it's, I think the whole story is incredible because obviously it started off with a skydive in 2003, which then became, you know, cycle in South America in 2004 and then I guess before you know it.

  What, in under a decade, then you're standing on the summits of Everest and you know, having having done not just an 8000, you know, 800 meter peak, you've also done, you know, six thousands and four thousands and five thousands and everything in between.

  43:29

  And I guess like you, like you you were saying earlier, is that I guess this project of the Seven Summits just unfolded in front of you as you as you're almost on that journey.

  And you're like, well, I've done, I've done 1234 of them already.

  So there's any.

  Let's let's we kind of talked offline about the the the final one the jewel in the crown of the Seven Summits because obviously it's it's much more complex than the others for a number of reasons that's the car tense pyramid obviously from from what I understand it's got quite a complicated lead in to actually get to the the base of the mountain but also it's it's currently.

  44:07

  Hit by some social challenges in the country as well.

  So do you want to kind of hand over to you for.

  Yeah, sure.

  So cast.

  This pyramid is in West Papua in Indonesia, and which has its own, like you're saying, social, economic and political challenges.

  44:25

  Full stop.

  You used to be able to trek in through the jungle for six days in order to get to base camp which is at 4200 meters.

  However, that when too many people were being kidnapped, it became a bit dangerous.

  44:44

  So that was stopped by the government which meant you had to fly and by helicopter, which has its own challenges because the weather out there is generally pretty wet.

  So and it also bumps up the price quite a lot.

  45:00

  And yeah, and you're going from a town in West Papua called Tamika which is at sea level and you're flying to 4200 meters.

  So that then also has its own issues with altitude and all of that.

  45:17

  However, the climb itself is a one day rock climb.

  You don't need rock shoes.

  You can approach shoes or climbing or or yeah, climbing boots and also with a a traverse on a a rope, a metal rope.

  45:34

  It's not even a bridge.

  I don't even know what you call it, this rope.

  While your feet go on one rope and there's two up by your shoulders that you flip into and use as a rail.

  And yeah, knowing that I'm a little bit funky with exposure and I'm fine.

  45:51

  Climbing mountain is absolutely fine.

  Rich lines.

  I'm, you know, just get on with it.

  But for me, again, it's all the reframing.

  It's like what's keeping me safe on this particular bit of ridiculousness And that is, you know, my my ability to put 1 foot in front of the other, break it all down and also I'm clipped into it.

  46:13

  So if I do wobble off, I'm not going to go very far because my equipment's all being checked and I know it's all safe and etc, etc.

  And so that was supposed to be number six of the seven for me.

  And the original aim was to do at the beginning of 2018 and I had funding for it at that point from a sponsor who'd sponsored me through Everest and then to complete the seven summit.

  46:42

  So I had to gnarly cast and Vincent to do and unfortunately he had to pull out.

  So I put the project on hold because I still had three to do.

  So that's quite a lot, you know, quite a lot to, sorry, two more to do.

  46:58

  So that's that's quite a lot of money to find on your own.

  And I was fundraising for children's mental health charity.

  So I needed to make sure the political situation was stable enough for me to not, for them not to have to instigate their emergency procedures, which they'd already had to once when the earthquake happened on Everest and they went into, you know, full emergency procedure mode because of me.

  47:24

  So I needed to make sure that wasn't going to happen.

  So roll forward to September 2019 and we were due to fly out, I think something like the 30th of September.

  And on the 29th in the evening I've literally just finished packing because I was going straight from there off to killy and I saw a a face no A a post on Instagram with carstens closed like you have got to be joking so and at which point our local agent, a local guide got in touch with me and said I'm really sorry but civil unrest is is majorly kicked off.

  48:08

  It's not just a little bit, but they were evacuating the local locals from Tamika and therefore we need to cancel the expedition.

  And we were 24 hours away from sitting on the plane to get there.

  Yeah.

  And that was 3 1/2 years ago.

  48:25

  And it's still, I think it opens briefly over the Christmas 2019.

  But I was on Vincent at that point so couldn't go.

  And there's me and four other people who who, you know, it's paid for.

  It's right, we raring to go.

  48:40

  And then obviously, COVID happens.

  And I've been in touch with my agent regularly since then just to check how he's doing because obviously all his business has been destroyed by COVID, but also destroyed by the civil unrest.

  The unrest, Yeah.

  48:55

  So yeah.

  And he said no, it's still a no go.

  So it will happen when it happens.

  And I'm.

  I've absolutely made friends with that.

  I cannot, You know, I've spoken to a couple of other people who said, oh, we'll just sneak in.

  I'm like just sneaking in a it's not possible.

  49:14

  And also you can get yourself killed and others.

  And that's the thing for me is I don't want to put anyone else in danger just because I want to finish the Seven Summits.

  I would love to finish the Seven Summits.

  Really love to do it.

  However, I will wait for it to happen and and I we we may be waiting quite a long time, but so be it.

  49:36

  I would much rather their political situation was good for the country, not because I want to go into that.

  I would love for our agents, get his business back and you know, all of that sort of stuff.

  So it will happen when it happens.

  49:52

  It sounds incredibly hard to make something like the end of a project happen when I guess you've got no control over all of the components of it, Joe.

  So I guess let's go back to a time in your adventure career when I guess what was it your favorite expedition?

  50:08

  When was the time that you really kind of?

  You know, involved in something where like this is, this is absolutely fantastic, this is all going smoothly and I'm enjoying it and it's all those things are balanced and it's interesting because the sometimes it's the smaller ones, you know, the ones where you just take off with a few friends and go and walk something even in the UK and you're like yeah, that's really cool.

  50:33

  It's a really nice, well, like on the DV expeditions I do.

  I've had a few really good ones where I've been assessing groups and they've absolutely smashed it.

  And I love that because they're still learning as they go along.

  Nothing is ever perfect, nothing ever goes, you know, 100% will never go according to plan.

  50:53

  It's just the way it.

  Is, Yeah, it shouldn't do either.

  It should.

  Otherwise it's a holiday, isn't it?

  And so although it would be nice sometimes, but yeah, it's the it's the learning process that I love as well.

  But personally for me it was Denali in Alaska or Mount McKinley is some some listeners may know it.

  51:12

  So it's the highest mountain in North America.

  And this was in June 2017.

  And so I arrived back from Everest in 2016, which was our second attempt because the earthquake struck in the year before.

  51:30

  So yeah, pay to that one.

  And I had, as I mentioned earlier, I've been sponsored to climb Everest and I was raising funds for children's mental health charity Place to Be and I went to see my Yes.

  I'll make, I'll make sure I went to see.

  51:47

  I went to see my sponsor six months after I got back, thinking that would be it.

  He'll go, yeah.

  Nice one.

  Glad you came back alive.

  Thanks.

  This time, you know well, about 25,000 for place to be.

  52:03

  And yeah, yeah.

  So it was a good amount of money.

  And so I thought, you know, that was it.

  And I walked into his office and we had a chat and he said, so what's next?

  And I said start babbling away going, oh, you know, I've done four of the seven, so maybe maybe that or I'd like to do a few more 8 thousanders, I said, But we'll see, You know, life throws at you lots of different things.

  52:26

  And he said, well, write me a proposal because I'd like to still continue this journey.

  I'd like you to still promote and raise awareness for place to be and raise money as it goes along.

  So I went home, started putting proposals together and we agreed on the Seven Summits, continuing that.

  52:45

  So I'd already climbed the floor, so I'd climbed Kilimanjaro back on quite Cagua, Elbris and then Everest.

  And so he said, right, get going.

  And the next one was Denali.

  And I remember reading a book written by Mark Beaumont, who is a phenomenal individual, and he cycled the Americas.

  53:10

  So he cycled from the north of North America down to the very end of South America, which is where I've been now twice to Schwa.

  Yeah, I know.

  So.

  And it really is the end of the world.

  And and he was, he cycled that, so he climbed Denali when he was in North American, then climbed on his way down through Argentina.

  53:36

  And he just the way he wrote about the mountain.

  And then he, he did a documentary about it about Denali.

  And I'm like, oh, that looks really cool, but I'm not capable of climbing.

  It's not for people like me.

  53:52

  So I then started putting all the barriers up and then when when the the chance came to actually go and do Denali and I had about four months notice, I was like, wow, I need to.

  It was intimidating.

  Wow.

  Yeah, a mountain way.

  54:08

  You don't have Porter or Sherpa support.

  And there's you, your team of climbers, two or three guides.

  You're on glacial ropes, so you're all tied together.

  You're pulling polks or sleds.

  54:24

  It's you in the mountain.

  That's it.

  And I'm like that sounds like the expedition for me because I wanted to see how capable I was in that environment.

  I I up to my fitness and I was probably the fittest I've ever been to go and do that.

  54:42

  I started dragging a tire called called Dave.

  I nicknazed Dave.

  David and Goliath, because I needed to give this 23K monster a name and make friends with him.

  Yeah, definitely.

  Because Dave, David from David and Glass was helping me get fit rather than being something that was annoying that I was dragging around.

  55:03

  It's like, no, this is going to get me fit.

  And it's also replicates what it's like to pull a sled.

  So anybody out there who's ever going to go sled pulling, pull some tires as well.

  It's really important.

  Some tires, yeah.

  So I went out and when I arrived, I was super, super fit, really strong and really up for it.

  55:24

  And when we arrived in Talquina, which is the place where you get on a Twin Otter to fly out to the glacier on the mountain, you go and have a a chat with the Rangers.

  55:39

  So this is your whole team, your guide.

  So you have this briefing per team.

  And they said, yeah, there may be a little earthquake or two.

  So what's?

  Just a casual little earthquake.

  Don't worry.

  About that.

  55:55

  And at the moment the success rate is 12%.

  And I was like, wow, OK, so whatever happens and this is where it's, we'll go and see what happens because the weather on Denali is, is, or can be, absolutely.

  I've heard more so than I've seen, and I've been on a concagua 3 times and we've had 120 K now.

  56:17

  Winds and you know, some really interesting weather.

  The weather on Denali is a whole different kept the fish.

  So we all flew out there and I love the fact that we were all in it as a team.

  56:34

  The first day we were awake for 24 hours and I was hallucinating by the time I was getting up to camp one.

  So by the time you along with Jetbag, by the time you drive up to Talkeeno and you do all of that during the day, and then you get on the flight and then you arrive and get all your stuff sorted at base camp on the glacier.

  56:53

  And then Andy says, oh, by the way, we we're going up to camp one tonight.

  We all thought we were.

  Yeah, exactly.

  We all thought because sometimes it's best not to give people too much information because you then just again have to get on with it.

  57:09

  And so, you know, for the half hour, I was on the back of my particular rope, which was in the middle, and I was turning around to Eric.

  The guy behind me was in front of his.

  And I'm like, can you hear rock fall?

  Can you hear horses?

  He said no, just keep walking, Joe.

  57:26

  I'll pick you up if you fall over, don't worry.

  So you know then when you get into camp you have to set up camp.

  So we were all doing everything, and I absolutely love that because it was, yeah, I just, I just felt like we were earning every footstep towards that summit and we had some really gnarly weather.

  57:48

  We were put back, you know, a few days and it was touch and go, whether we had enough time because you have a time frame in order to climb the mountain.

  And even when we eventually got up to high camp, you know, he he was, he had four weather forecasts and none of them said they're the same thing.

  58:07

  So it's like, oh sure, do you?

  Choose, you say.

  What's the medium of the medium of all the?

  About the 10:00 in the morning, have a look in the sky, see what happening.

  And at 10, I think 9:30 that morning he came to our tent.

  58:23

  He's like, right, we're on and and I've had that before on Manistulu.

  We thought we were going to be hunkering down at base camp for 10 days and Rolf came in the tent light.

  We're going.

  It's like that.

  See you outside in 5 minutes.

  58:39

  Very much so.

  I think we left.

  We left high camp at 10:00 in the morning.

  We summitted at, I don't know, six that night or something.

  No, it didn't take us that long to get there.

  I can't remember.

  Anyway, it was a 12 hour round trip, I can't remember now.

  58:56

  And it was the most perfect weather day you could ever wish for on a mountain.

  We had the summit to ourselves.

  There was only a couple of other teams around summitting that day.

  It was just amazing.

  59:12

  Then we come back to high camp and then we go back to advanced base camp and spend the night there and then it's a 24 hour, another 24 hour day to get back to the the pick up point because we had to be there.

  59:31

  If we didn't make it, there was weather coming in then we'd be stuck so.

  Is that pick up by heading up to ski ski play?

  Yeah, Twin off to.

  Ski.

  Yeah.

  They it was like I'm so done with 24 hour days by that point and it's but it's really and this is what my dad always used to say it's character building stuff but he then used to then caveat that was I think you have enough character.

  59:58

  I was like thanks.

  Dad your.

  Daughter remember and it stays like that which are absolutely character building.

  Yeah, there's, I guess like there's there's.

  Kind of self limiting beliefs in in a way, you know, they're kind of I guess shining a light on them.

  1:00:14

  You know, like you know there's a lot of writing out there about impostor syndrome and you know and and those and there's limiting beliefs.

  I think actually now it's it's kind of I look back on kind of like you know, 20 or 30 years ago.

  And I think actually it would have been a great time to have those people talking about those things back, you know, back when we were in the formative years and actually now I think actually it's, you know.

  1:00:36

  Definitely.

  There's times when we kind of use those.

  There's resilience from those 24 hour days like you say during the pandemic and you know the kind of accident recovery.

  And I do wonder if, I wonder if actually if the times we have to use them up, you know that resilience that we have to kind of restock the.

  1:00:53

  The bag full of more of those moments just to remind yourself that you're able to do this thing.

  So hopefully no more massive accidents for your earthquakes to me though.

  So we do have a little there was a little earthquake on Denali and I felt it as well at high camp and when I got back nobody else felt it.

  1:01:12

  But I think I'm a bit more in tune to it than somebody who hasn't been in that scenario situation.

  And I got back down to advanced base camp where one of the guys was and he's like, oh, did he feel that I'm like, you did too?

  I knew, I knew.

  1:01:27

  It wasn't, you know, I knew it wasn't.

  Hallucinating.

  Yeah, you know.

  But yeah, and it resilience is an interesting thing because it it, you know, there's two dictionary definitions of it.

  The 1st is the sort of stiff upper lip just get crack on and you know, be totally British about it all.

  1:01:46

  Yes, it sounds kind of more like Stoicism.

  Yeah, very much so.

  In a way, Isn't it just kind of, yeah.

  And the other definition as well is the ability to bounce back.

  And for me, that's the really important bit.

  Yes, the stoicism and the grit and determination absolutely come into play when you need them to.

  1:02:05

  But I think just as survival techniques that happens quite a lot anyway and it's such a it's so weird that we have to almost go through all these really bad situations in order to be stronger.

  It's like this is bonkers.

  1:02:20

  But yeah, so it's the ability to bounce back and and it's not what happens in your life, good or bad, that makes you the person you are is how you deal with it.

  And and every time I see you get to a situation where I want to have a little bit of a hissy fit and like can't just remember.

  1:02:41

  Like, I guess do you think back, I guess do you think back to that side of interrupt?

  Do you think back to the kind of the, the skydive back in 2003 where I guess you're like, well, I know, I know I've overcome these hurdles at multiple stages of, you know, my life to, you know, to result in standing at the highest point in the world.

  1:02:59

  I guess it's.

  Yeah, absolutely.

  And after an earthquake as well.

  You know, we went through the earthquake.

  Yeah.

  Rolf and I were at Camp One on Everest in on the 25th of April 2015 when 7.9 shook underneath our feet and three of our shippers at Base Camp were and lost their lives.

  1:03:17

  And all of the sort of ramifications that come from that, you never, it still gives me goosebumps and you never think you're going to be in those situations.

  And I'm sure the same with you when you had your accident as well.

  1:03:32

  You think it always happens to other people.

  Not that you want it to, but it always seems to happen to other people.

  So when these things are happening to you, you're like, oh Blimey, this is a bit real, you know?

  Yeah, yeah.

  I'll just come around separate points.

  1:03:50

  We both thought we were going to lose our lives.

  You know, it was, it was a very real, it wasn't a sort of that was a bit close.

  It's like that was too close.

  That was that was too much of it.

  And actually, there's a really good Netflix documentary called Aftershock, and that's not been out very long.

  1:04:10

  Actually, I watched it, just I actually watched it on Christmas Day, which is really stupid.

  That's syndication.

  Now I've got to say I'm going.

  To make a note to it, it shows the earthquake in three different locations, So one in the Lang Tang valley, which was absolutely destroyed, one in Kanmandu and then at camp One on Everest.

  1:04:29

  And the lady, and I can't remember her name escapes me now.

  Who was telling the story on Everest?

  I mean it was, I was living it with her because we were absolutely where she was, you know, so I totally lived that experience with her.

  1:04:46

  And when I do talks like I do a lot of talks about resilience and championing others and to schools and corporates.

  And it is, it's a real pivotal part of the talk because when you do a talk, you so take these people who are listening or watching on this emotional journey and you, you know, and there's laughs in there and there's, you know, bit of bit of sort of just go on and do it.

  1:05:22

  Yeah.

  And then you get to this point.

  And I used to remember when I started doing talks when everybody go quiet and I think, Oh my God, I've lost them.

  But they are absolutely invested in what's going on at that.

  Yeah.

  So.

  So silence is a good thing.

  It's a really good thing.

  Yeah.

  Terrifying is that when you do the speak, aren't you?

  Because, but yeah, Everest is just one chapter of my life and that, and that's the really big thing to remember is that, and it's not, it doesn't define my life.

  1:05:43

  It's a massive thing that's happened.

  And however it's a it's a part of the mountains of my life, whether they're physical or metaphorical.

  So yeah.

  Yeah, that's such a good metaphor.

  1:05:58

  Like I kind of like I look back on the last kind of.

  What, three years of accident and COVID, you know, it's like just a chapter now, whereas at the time it's just like a long kind of semi excruciating chapter that you're just waiting for it to get on to the next one.

  But it's such a good way of kind of compartmenting.

  1:06:15

  Yeah, definitely.

  And there's there's so much other stuff that goes on in your life.

  And you know, I lost both my dogs last year, and my dogs to me are absolutely everything, you know, My, my, no, it's fine, it's fine.

  But it is.

  It's these kind of this side I've dealt with worse, I've dealt with worse.

  1:06:31

  Actually, this is not worse.

  This is the worst.

  Losing my father was awful and but we knew that was inevitable.

  Losing my 6 year old Spaniel who had epilepsy and she had to be put down because of complications with her epilepsy.

  1:06:50

  She was six, you know, and she was everything to me.

  And then my older dog who was 16, bless her, had her put to sleep end of November.

  And it's like I'm now don't have a dog in 22 years.

  1:07:06

  And that's a really weird space to be because.

  And not just for me as well for my mum, because my parents used to look after my dogs when I was away and then when my dad passed away my mum looks after them and she had them for 17 weeks during the first lockdown and it absolutely saved her bacon.

  1:07:25

  So and I now sort of, I now have to create this other life.

  But it's just it's not creating another life.

  It's just settling into a new rhythm and I will get another dog and I put a post up about it I think last week but I don't actually think I'm quite ready for it yet because I just I'm too emotional about it.

  1:07:46

  So but yeah and and it's it's dealing with personal earthquakes and A and a friend of mine who's a psychologist said to me you know everybody has their own Rick to scale and where they've hit he's like yours just happens to be a physical rate to scale as well as personal ones.

  1:08:04

  But it it's then sort of putting all these things into context and and as much as comparison is the thief of joy.

  It's like I don't want to live my life as a pity party and I'm really aware of that as well.

  1:08:22

  So empathy and compassion is very, very strong as well.

  So, but.

  Yeah, yeah, they definitely.

  I'm just literally making some notes.

  There's some some fantastic, quite some metaphors there about the person of Victor's scale and the the quotes about comparison being the thief of joy.

  1:08:37

  Yeah.

  And so making sure they're definitely including the show notes, so.

  Yeah, well I guess we've we've covered a huge amount.

  So I guess is, is there any kind of shout outs you want to to to give listeners or or organizations or supported or kind of people or let's give it like a long list of three expedition companies that I work for.

  1:09:01

  So adventurous you 360 expeditions and discover adventure.

  Who helped me to discover adventure literally as it says on the tip, you know, they're 3 brilliant expedition companies that I've worked with and have known for a very long time and have shaped my career, helped shape my career.

  1:09:22

  You know, I do a lot of Duke of Edinburgh's awards expedition training and assessment and I absolutely love that.

  And that's what's something that I will still keep on this year for sure, because I get as much out of it.

  I get a huge amount out of leading out of expeditions and upskilling people and giving them just a broader range of knowledge and getting them in a place where they may be out to go and do this stuff on their own.

  1:09:47

  Because I think that's really empowering.

  I don't want people being guide dependent.

  I want to get them in a place on an expedition where when we're on a summit day, they're doing it themselves.

  And I'm there as backup.

  1:10:02

  And that's a really empowering position to be in.

  And quite, yeah, yeah, definitely quite exposing for that person because they feel they're going to be led by, you know, whoever I'm like, ah yeah, it's.

  Always dragged up.

  Yeah, I.

  Want to give you the noise?

  1:10:21

  Because then, as much as when they get back down, I don't want them to say Joe got me to the top.

  It's like Joe helped me get there, you know?

  It's such.

  A crucial, subtle, but crucial differences, Yeah.

  1:10:37

  So this year I'm concentrating on sort of some more personal projects.

  Obviously, I still need to earn.

  Money.

  So I'm working on the speaking side of my business, so if anybody out there would like me to come and do a talk or a workshop on all sorts of subjects around resilience and vulnerability, and it's a really important one.

  1:11:00

  And the menopause, because that's absolutely kicked my ass in the last sort of four or five years as well.

  So.

  And how I managed to regain a balance in my life where I thought I'd have to give up the outdoors because I was in such a bad place.

  1:11:16

  But yeah, and I'm going to, I did aim on when was it, 2021?

  I had written down all these 100K journeys that I wanted to do with Lily, my spaniel, and unfortunately we never got to do any.

  1:11:35

  So I'm going to start doing them and hopefully my first one's going to be in Scotland.

  It's not the West Highland Way, but it is very.

  Very dependent because I don't want to be out there in, you know, five or six days of absolutely wrong weather because I want to enjoy it as well.

  1:11:52

  So I'm not.

  Saying what it is, I'm actually at the start line.

  But yeah, so and the less popular routes as well.

  So championing the ones that people don't know about so much.

  So yeah, and just I spent a bit more time in my own house, in my own bed.

  1:12:15

  Yeah, yeah, exactly so.

  It's an odd feeling, isn't it?

  Really, Like, and this is, it's nice not to get on the flights all the time, isn't it?

  And actually just enjoy being in one place for more than 5 minutes.

  Turning down to Antarctica and back absolutely did me in, so I've just done.

  1:12:31

  It's a big stream.

  I know going to Marrakech was a lot easier, but yeah, and and it was something else I was going to mention then and I completely forgot what it is.

  Oh, yes.

  So also so I, you know I'm a big advocate saying yes and working out later it's my dad's favorite mantra.

  1:12:53

  He was used to laugh at me with mantras and everything but he was his favorite saying and and it's you know big thing you, you know the the Yes tribe and say yes more community as well.

  And I am constantly helping people step out of their comfort zone.

  1:13:10

  So it's time for me to to do that as well And and I've got a few things lined up this year that's going to that's going to do that And one of them is being coming into the year after Antarctica with not as full of diary as I'm used to and only one other expedition overseas expedition guiding books in my diary that's in end of October and that's quite exposing because I'm just about covering my bills financially.

  1:13:44

  So I need to really make sure that I work on what's coming in next rather than sort of September, October every year I fill up my diary with expeditions.

  So I know that I'm absolutely fine for the year and everything over than that is, is bonus.

  But I'm leaving myself open to opportunities and that is really scary and quite exposing, but very exciting.

  1:14:10

  So yeah, my brain.

  I was gonna say let this, I mean like with your wealth of experience like.

  I think any organization would jump at the chance to kind of like pick your brains about product testing, about product reviewing, kind of helping develop their the way the things are doing or just kind of talking about the resilience and all those kind of lessons you've picked up first hand over the years.

  1:14:38

  Well, I hope so.

  I hope so.

  I do have fair amount of talks anyway, but it's always nice to do more and to schools as well.

  I, I, I try and get in in front of school kids because you can have you can just plant the seed because they see you here now.

  1:14:54

  But at school I was this sort of much different character and I was bullied a lot of school and I had a really rough time and you know, found it really hard being in that environment.

  1:15:11

  And so I just want and also thinking that you're gonna leave school and do one thing for the rest of your life and then it all changes.

  It's actually all right not to know what you wanna do and also all right to change during your life as well.

  1:15:29

  Yeah, the plan as well.

  So, yeah, yeah, I completely agree.

  Well, James, I thank you so much for giving up your time to.

  Like share this insight about these expeditions.

  I think we could have easily gone on for kind of four or five hours with these stories.

  I think definitely like is I started in the for the pandemic actually just writing a lot more things down and going for all journals actually and kind of digging out those.

  1:15:54

  Those thoughts, those feelings, those lessons to kind of put into written form and brilliant.

  Well, over time writing like this these days.

  So I'm hoping we're going to get to read more about your kind of expeditions.

  And yeah, definitely.

  Well, I have a blog coming out about a day's climbing.

  I did.

  1:16:10

  I have this project called The Adventure Van with a Social Plan and I did a day with a brilliant climbing instructor called Mark Eddy from Mountain Journeys last September.

  It was actually six months ago today and and so that needs to come out and I need to do more of that particular project.

  1:16:29

  It was hugely interesting to chat to Gerva Mountaineering and experiences in Antarctica.

  If you're interested in high altitude and challenging places, be sure to check the show notes for the web links to what we spoke about, and I'll see you next time.

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